Updating project page to reflect the changes discussed during the last KDE herd meeting; Adding meeting logs

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+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:00:44] Join	tgurr has joined this channel (n=tgurr@hbrn-590f7fff.pool.einsundeins.de).
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:00:54] <Philantrop>	!herd kde
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:00:57] <jeeves>	Philantrop: (kde) caleb, carlo, centic, cryos, deathwing00, genstef, keytoaster, masterdriverz, mattepiu, philantrop, tgurr, troll, vanquirius
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:00] <genstef>	here?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:03] <keytoaster>	yes
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:19] <cryos|laptop>	Is it 18:00 hours already?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:22] <keytoaster>	yes
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:24] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: Yes. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:33] <Philantrop>	At least in UTC. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:34] <keytoaster>	20:00 in germany :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:40] <Philantrop>	20:01!
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:44] <cryos|laptop>	I make it 14:01.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:01:58] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: You're *way* behind! ;-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:02:03] <tgurr>	hi all :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:03:12] <Philantrop>	Any  objections against waiting for two or three more minutes? Deathwing00 told me he would be here. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:03:43] <genstef>	yes
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:03:49] 	 * cryos|laptop murmurs about German efficiency :D
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:03:52] <genstef>	just start
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:05:17] <Philantrop>	Ok, let's go then.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:05:47] <Philantrop>	1. Update to the project page - are we happy with it now that it's been updated? Any additions, etc?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:06:55] <keytoaster>	i'm happy with it :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:07:03] <Philantrop>	We, jmbsvicetto, keytoaster and myself have added what we thought was appropriate and it seems we all agree on it, atm. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:07:29] <Philantrop>	So that task from the last meeting is done. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:07:50] <Philantrop>	2. Review of the project page is done, too, aunless anyone objects now. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:08:11] <cryos|laptop>	Nope.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:08:34] <Philantrop>	3. Process improvement - NeddySeagoon can't make it today, it seems. 
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:08:48] <Philantrop>	It doesn't seem as if much can be done about it anymore anyway...
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:09:02] <keytoaster>	yup
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:09:19] <Philantrop>	4. Miscellaneous - bump to KDE 3.5.8
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:09:53] <Philantrop>	As I'Ve mailed to all of you, I've set up a git repository to collaborate on it. So far, jmbsvicetto, Ingmar^, tgurr and myself worked on it.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:10:12] <Philantrop>	I've gotten exactly zero feedback to my mail about it. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:10:33] <cryos|laptop>	Are you manually bumping it? Sorry - I have been mostly offline these last few weeks/months.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:10:49] <keytoaster>	i couldn't answer because i'm currently not at home and running windows :(
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:11:13] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: we've bumped the monolithic ebuilds manually, yes. The splits were initially done by the script and are now being combed through manually.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:11:47] <cryos|laptop>	Philantrop: OK - sounds good. We always used to just mask and bump - why the git repo now if I may ask?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:12:20] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: The last bump was critisized by many as rushed and bad. I wanted to avoid that this time. :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:12:26] <cryos|laptop>	Masking allowed us to get the arch teams on board and give them access to the tarballs before release via dev.gentoo.org and gentoo-core.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:12:44] <cryos|laptop>	Then we could just unmask after the official release.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:12:46] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: Furthermore, like this, interested users like Ingmar^ could help, too.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:13:01] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: And, of course, we'll put them into the tree and package.mask soon. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:13:26] <genstef>	Philantrop: thanks for your mail, was very good :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:13:34] <genstef>	Philantrop: is there a release date scheduled yet?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:13:41] <cryos|laptop>	Just seems to be making the process more hassle for arch teams to get involved with and interested users can send patches. I have been away so I am mainly asking.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:13:50] <Philantrop>	genstef: Yes, it's to be released on the 16th. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:14:36] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: Well, yes, they could but why not combine both? We can still do the p.mask/tarball stuff (like tomorrow :-) ) *and* let others help directly.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:14:46] <cryos|laptop>	I always worry about the trend towards overlays and separate repos making it harder to see and track stuff.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:14:58] <cryos|laptop>	Just my opinion though - I know others like it.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:15:24] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: My main point is: People like Ingmar^ are very, very good dev "material" and training them on the job helps, IMHO.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:15:29] <genstef>	cryos|laptop: right, but this stuff isnot meant to be public by upstream
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:15:31] <cryos|laptop>	I have very little right to criticise anything due to my recent inactivity anyway.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:16:01] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: No, that's wrong. You have *all* the right to critisize. I'd just like to *convince* you. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:16:15] 	 * cryos|laptop will be quiet - I can see the reasoning.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:16:45] <genstef>	well, but cryos is right. Last time the mail went to gentoo-core and every dev was able to test iirc
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:17:19] <Philantrop>	Anyway, I intend to put the stuff into the tree by tomorow (in p.mask) and inform -core. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:17:25] <Philantrop>	Any objections?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:17:37] <genstef>	Philantrop: right, sounds cool! Enough time for the arch teams to test then :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:17:54] <Philantrop>	genstef: Yes, I hope so. 
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:18:10] <Philantrop>	I don't think, though, we'll make it to 2007.1 or do you think we can/should?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:18:25] <Philantrop>	Into stable, I mean.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:18:34] <cryos|laptop>	When is the snapshot date?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:18:37] 	 * genstef does not care about releases
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:18:48] <genstef>	everyone runs emerge --sync anyways ..
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:18:58] <Philantrop>	xxxxxxxxxxxx - Initial snapshot
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:18:58] <Philantrop>	xxxxxxxxxxxx - Final snapshot
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:18:58] <Philantrop>	xxxxxxxxxxxx - Release
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:19:21] <genstef>	well, imo stable the earlier the better
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:19:25] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: ^^^
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:19:34] <cryos|laptop>	It would be silly to try and make those dates, but I totally agree with genstef.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:19:40] <cryos|laptop>	Stable the earlier the better.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:20:03] <genstef>	but 19th will not happen I think
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:20:04] <Philantrop>	genstef: Yes, same here. I just wouldn't want to tell the release guys now we'll make it and possibly delay them if we don't. Opinions?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:20:11] <keytoaster>	sorry, we are having dinner now, i'll read the conversation when i'm back
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:20:17] <genstef>	ok
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:20:36] <genstef>	Philantrop: so we will not make it
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:20:50] <cryos|laptop>	Philantrop: I wouldn't tell them we would make it - the 9th is too tight a schedule really.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:21:25] <cryos|laptop>	In some ways it is a shame - would be good to have 3.5.8 GRPed.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:21:33] <Philantrop>	Ok, let's say we can *try* but if we don't, the world will not stop spinning. I will *not* inform the release guys about us making it in time.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:21:53] <tgurr>	sounds good to me
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:21:58] <jmbsvicetto>	I'm home
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:22:02] <jmbsvicetto>	Sorry for the delay
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:22:06] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: Welcome back! :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:22:28] <Philantrop>	Ok, next point: "Changing to split ebuilds by default? That would mean going through all KDE ebuilds and changing the dependency order."
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:22:47] 	 * genstef is against it.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:22:56] 	 * Philantrop is against it, too.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:23:05] <genstef>	But if you must for 4.0, you can
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:23:27] <Philantrop>	I don't see the need but maybe there are other opinions?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:23:34] <cryos|laptop>	I would rather see us do it for 4.0 and leave 3.5 well enough alone.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:24:10] <jakub>	yeah, not for 3.x
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:24:12] <cryos|laptop>	The apache herd screw around lots inside minor releases and it hasn't made them very popular...
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:24:21] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: That sounds like a good idea. genstef, what do you think?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:24:31] <cryos|laptop>	May be not lots, but when they have it has been painful at times.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:24:33] <jakub>	and better kill monolithic stuff for 4.0 altogether
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:24:42] <Philantrop>	jakub: That's one more point later. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:24:43] <genstef>	jakub: sounds good
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:25:04] <jakub>	Philantrop: well, just a suggestion... :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:25:15] 	 * cryos|laptop adds a here, here.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:25:22] <jakub>	but yeah, messing with the (last?) 3.5.x release in this way will piss off users
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:25:36] <Philantrop>	So, we keep the current dep order for now but change it to split as default for >=4.0?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:26:05] <genstef>	Philantrop: right, because split definitely has advantages, with many patches coming in
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:26:19] <jmbsvicetto>	I would like to see us go to split by default
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:26:21] <genstef>	Philantrop: and 4.0 I expect to get many bugreports+patches early :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:26:23] <Philantrop>	genstef: Indeed. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:26:34] <jakub>	Philantrop: as said, you really want to keep monolithic stuff for 4.0?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:26:41] <jakub>	sounds just like maintenance overhead to me
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:26:49] <genstef>	jakub: hey, leave the lead to Philantrop!
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:27:01] <Philantrop>	genstef: We already get them for the 4.0 overlays. Which leads us to the next point: KDE4 in the overlays. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:27:07] <jakub>	genstef: hey, gimme a beer! :P
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:27:17] <jmbsvicetto>	I can live with split for >= 4.0, though
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:27:26] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: Ok, that's decided then. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:27:30] 	 * genstef paurs some beer into the wire to jakub's glass
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:27:44] <jakub>	anyway, the point - users are horrible confused by the blockers b/w monolithic/split, they've never grokked it
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:27:52] <jakub>	and really makes the eclasses/ebuilds a mess
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:28:08] <Philantrop>	KDE4 in the overlay is doing well. People are reporting bugs, installing it and using it. We currently have both monolithic and split ebuilds.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:28:40] <genstef>	and you have a special project and channel for it :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:28:42] <jmbsvicetto>	jakub: I got a block earlier because I tried to emerge kdesdk-3.5.8 and kdevelop-3.5
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:28:46] <Philantrop>	Personally, I'd like to keep the monolithic ebuilds. We usually follow upstream and we give our users the freedom of choice. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:28:54] <jakub>	Philantrop: if you could make zmedico into sticking ranged deps into EAPI-1 by the KDE4 release time, that'd be awesome :P
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:28:58] <jmbsvicetto>	jakub: We should really have a way to prevent that
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:29:23] <jmbsvicetto>	jakub: We need ranges and sets
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:29:48] <jakub>	jmbsvicetto: well, for sets, you can workaround in a semi-reasonable way by the metabuilds...
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:29:52] <jmbsvicetto>	jakub: That would allow us to drop the meta / meta use flags
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:29:54] <jakub>	for ranged deps, the hacks are insane :/
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:30:23] <Philantrop>	Let's assume for now that we won't get ranged deps/real sets in time for 4.0. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:30:46] <jakub>	Philantrop: gah, torture Zac to do it! :>
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:31:25] <jmbsvicetto>	hehe
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:31:27] <Philantrop>	jakub: :-)) I can't. I only torture soon-to-be devs. Not grizzled veterans. ;-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:31:34] <jmbsvicetto>	jakub: I thought your preferred method involved beer ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:31:51] <jmbsvicetto>	jakub: even kegs of beer
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:32:01] <jakub>	jmbsvicetto: heh, if that fails, you need something more... effective :D
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:32:31] <Philantrop>	Guys, KDE4 and monolithic ebuilds - to keep them or not to keep them. That's the question. What's your answer? Mine is: Keep them. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:32:56] <Philantrop>	!herd kde
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:33:00] <jeeves>	Philantrop: (kde) caleb, carlo, centic, cryos, deathwing00, genstef, keytoaster, masterdriverz, mattepiu, philantrop, tgurr, troll, vanquirius
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:33:11] 	 * genstef did not write those
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:33:23] <genstef>	so I just go with philantrop on that matter :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:33:38] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: As long as we can start the work for split from the meta, we might as well keep them
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:33:44] <tgurr>	but the splits should be default by then
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:33:53] <Philantrop>	tgurr: Agreed.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:33:53] <jmbsvicetto>	tgurr++
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:34:23] <jakub>	shrug; you're going to maintain the stuff :P
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:34:36] <Philantrop>	Three times "yes" so far: Philantrop, genstef, tgurr (splits will be default). cryos|laptop?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:34:49] <genstef>	like: kdebase and kdebase-mon? ;) instead of kdebase-meta?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:35:23] <cryos|laptop>	I would get rid, but don't object that much to keeping.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:35:24] <jakub>	-mon? :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:35:25] <jmbsvicetto>	kdebase is going to be split in two, right?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:35:31] <cryos|laptop>	So I vote no.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:35:37] <jmbsvicetto>	kdebase and kdebase-plasma(?)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:35:59] <Philantrop>	masterdriverz: Any thoughts? :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:36:13] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: Thanks, noted. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:37:05] <Philantrop>	Ok, so it's 3:1 for keeping the monolithic ebuilds for KDE4. 
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:37:17] <Philantrop>	Anything else on KDE4?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:37:37] <Sho_>	jmbsvicetto: From our side we have runtime, workspace and apps in kdebase
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:37:43] 	 * jakub still offers a keg for getting sets and ranged deps in b4 KDE4 :D
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:37:51] <jmbsvicetto>	Sho_: sorry, that's it - kdebase and kdebase-workspace
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:38:28] <jmbsvicetto>	Sho_: That's what Ingmar^ said, iirc
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:38:47] <jakub>	jmbsvicetto: ^^ ding ding - motivation above! :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:38:54] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: Ingmar^ is a great fan of splitting. He might do even more. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:38:57] <jmbsvicetto>	:)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:38:57] <jakub>	anyway, /me out for a couple of plops, have fun guys :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:39:14] Quit	tibix_ has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:39:17] <Philantrop>	Ok, the point for KDE4 should be done then. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:39:46] Join	tibix_ has joined this channel (n=tibix@host86.200-45-178.telecom.net.ar).
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:39:48] <Philantrop>	Next point: I'm going to document the procedure of bumping to the minor KDE revisions. Any help is welcome. I'll present a draft soon.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:40:05] <jmbsvicetto>	jakub: If we need you, we'll send you a *SIGBEER* ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:40:58] <Philantrop>	Anything I should take special care of when documenting possible bump procedures?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:42:01] <Philantrop>	Ok, obviously not. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:42:11] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: Sorry, but since you're talking about documentation, most people are likely to need some kde4 crash course - in particular to cmake
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:42:29] <jmbsvicetto>	s/most/some/
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:42:31] <jakub>	jmbsvicetto: ok, sounds like a deal :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:42:56] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: :-) Well, yes, but there's not much we can do about it, I think. Self-education should be most effective unless you have a better suggestion. :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:43:40] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: Unless you want to install a "re-education camp". ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:43:46] <jmbsvicetto>	hehe
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:44:13] <jakub>	hmmm, camp... steaks... _beer_
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:44:19] <jakub>	Philantrop++
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:44:21] <jmbsvicetto>	Well, I guess I'll need to reeducate myself, since I haven't seen kde4 in a while ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:44:31] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: I'll add this to the summary, though. Maybe someone has an idea or helpful link. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:44:52] <Philantrop>	jakub: I thought more along the lines of a prison camp. ;-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:44:59] <genstef>	Philantrop: it would be cool to explain why it is best to have the non-working ebuilds in the git to allow external help and afterwards in gentoo-x86 to allow internal testing :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:45:32] <jmbsvicetto>	genstef: It doesn't have to be git, just an overlay
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:45:46] <genstef>	jmbsvicetto: right
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:45:46] <jmbsvicetto>	genstef: But git is good a choice
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:46:10] <genstef>	git would be cool for the portage tree imo. Just pull from external contributors :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:46:16] <jakub>	well, * >> cvs :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:46:36] <jmbsvicetto>	genstef: You know how the cvs/svn/git/* debate ended last time ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:46:48] <Philantrop>	genstef: We don't *have* to do it in a git repository for all times. This was just one approach. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:47:07] <jakub>	jmbsvicetto: well yeah, it's not gonna get anywhere...
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:47:11] <genstef>	jmbsvicetto: ok, better not discuss it then ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:47:20] <jakub>	jmbsvicetto: we'll be stuck w/ cvs until we switch infra first
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:47:53] <jmbsvicetto>	jakub: I wouldn't say that. I think robbat2 is close to accept git
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:48:06] <Philantrop>	!herd kde
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:48:09] <jeeves>	Philantrop: (kde) caleb, carlo, centic, cryos, deathwing00, genstef, keytoaster, masterdriverz, mattepiu, philantrop, tgurr, troll, vanquirius
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:48:09] <genstef>	switch infra!
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:48:10] <Philantrop>	Anything else we should discuss? :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:48:11] <jmbsvicetto>	jakub: He has worked on it to supress the shortcommings
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:48:16] 	 * jakub really out now... oh btw, getting the new eclasses eclass-manpages friendly would be nice :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:48:26] <Philantrop>	jakub: Yes, that's in the making. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:48:48] <jakub>	Philantrop: if you want help, poke me ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:48:55] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: What about the cmake eclass?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:49:00] <Philantrop>	jakub: Thanks, I surely will! :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:49:26] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: We have one more showstopper in it: cmake-utils-src_test. We need to work on that before I re-submit it.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:49:26] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: Has it been merged to Portage or is it still on the overlay?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:49:36] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: It's still in the overlay only.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:49:37] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: Oh and one final issue - ATs/HTs!
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:49:43] <genstef>	waah, cmake.eclass is not yet in the tree?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:49:56] <genstef>	urrx, should be imo
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:50:12] <Philantrop>	genstef: Unfortunately, no. People had lots of suggestions. We've done most of it but that one remains.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:50:28] <Philantrop>	genstef: I'm going to try to get it in next week, though.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:51:45] <shade>	jmbsvicetto: ping
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:51:55] <Philantrop>	The problem is: cmake-utils' src_test is mostly a copy of the one in ebuild.sh but we currently need it to check whether it's an in-source or out-of-source build.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:52:05] <Philantrop>	Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:52:37] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: "ATs/HTs". What's your suggestion about them?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:52:51] <jmbsvicetto>	Well, glep41 http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0041.html created ATs and HTs
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:53:01] <shade>	jmbsvicetto: so, config ata is sompiled into the kernel, same as config ide
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:53:03] <jmbsvicetto>	I think kde would benefit from having a HT team
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:53:10] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: Yes, but it has been rejected by the council in its current state. :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:53:19] <jmbsvicetto>	shade: We're in the middle of a meeting. Give us a few minutes, ok? Thanks
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:53:34] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: Not rejected. It hasn't been implemented
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:53:36] <shade>	jmbsvicetto: ok, np:)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:53:51] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: And ATs get official recognition
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:53:55] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: I thought so, too. Look at the relevant meeting's log, though. :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:54:21] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: What hasn't been accepted is the @g.o email addresses. Everything else was accepted
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:54:32] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: So, can I be a kde ht?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:54:40] <cryos|laptop>	We use HTs in the sci herd quite successfully.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:54:42] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: There's nothing to say against Herd Testers, though. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:54:57] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: Pretty, pretty please?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:55:04] <jmbsvicetto>	;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:55:05] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: Oh? That's good to know. Never heard about them before. :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:55:05] <cryos|laptop>	I got them boosted bugzilla powers and access the overlay.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:55:23] <cryos|laptop>	Philantrop: Quite a few went on to become devs later too.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:55:32] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: How's the procedure to make them HTs?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:55:55] <cryos|laptop>	I think I was supposed to make a web page about this stuff.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:01] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: :-))
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:05] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: Anyway, "personally" I won't gain anything I don't have yet, with the exception of showing up in the kde team page. But other people could get official recognition
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:27] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: Well, there's precedent, it seems and it makes sense...
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:31] <cryos|laptop>	I just used to talk to someone who I have forgotten now who was in charge of the AT project about getting bugzie sorted.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:34] <genstef>	yeah, I like the idea
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:41] <jmbsvicetto>	cryos|laptop: hparker ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:43] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: That would be hparker. 
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:48] <cryos|laptop>	Yes jmbsvicetto!
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:54] <genstef>	cryos|laptop: hparker
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:56:57] <cryos|laptop>	It has been a while :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:57:08] <Philantrop>	So, do we want Herd Testers? I support the idea. Others?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:57:20] <cryos|laptop>	I think it works well and would support the idea.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:57:35] <jmbsvicetto>	cryos|laptop: s/would/will/ !!! ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:57:57] <Philantrop>	masterdriverz, tgurr: Your vote?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:58:04] <tgurr>	sure :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:58:08] <cryos|laptop>	It is a great chance for people to get a bit of a taste of being a dev and decide if it is for them. Some only ever want the HT position and others drift away again,.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:58:43] <cryos|laptop>	Means when people go on to become devs they are usually more certain about actually wanting to do it too.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:58:56] <Philantrop>	Ok, so we have four "yes" (genstef, cryos|laptop, tgurr, Philantrop) and no objections. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:59:04] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop: Yes, sounds really good to me. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:59:21] <Philantrop>	I'll talk to hparker about it.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:59:24] <genstef>	so we need some amendment to the project page about that, right?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:59:39] <Philantrop>	genstef: Yes, thanks for volunteering! ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:59:45] <genstef>	including the procedure of how a herd member goes about promoting someone to HT :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:59:50] <genstef>	ok :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [20:59:58] <jmbsvicetto>	genstef: You would add a section listing the HT members and some documentation on how to become one
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:00:06] <genstef>	right
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:00:29] <Philantrop>	genstef: So you'd be willing to make a draft for that? Maybe for the next meeting (or earlier)? :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:00:30] <jmbsvicetto>	genstef: I'm probably going to have to do something similar for sparc ATs, so if you want, I can work with you on that
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:01:02] <genstef>	jmbsvicetto: ok, cool!
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:01:14] <genstef>	Philantrop: will send it to kde@gentoo.org then
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:01:27] <Philantrop>	genstef, jmbsvicetto: Thanks, guys! I'll add that to the summary, too.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:01:44] <Philantrop>	Anything else, gentlemen?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:02:43] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: About six-sigma, are we still interested in trying it on kde?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:02:55] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: If so, do we leave that for a future meeting where NeddySeagoon can help?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:03:12] <Philantrop>	jmbsvicetto: Good question. Opinions?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:03:36] <tgurr>	six-sigma?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:04:07] <Philantrop>	tgurr: Oh, right. That was before your dev time. It's a process improvement thing.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:04:25] <Philantrop>	tgurr: I'll forward you a mail about it.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:04:47] <keytoaster>	re
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:05:00] <Philantrop>	I'd say we invite Neddy to our next meeting and see about it then. Any objections?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:05:07] <tgurr>	Philantrop, thanks :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:05:14] <Philantrop>	keytoaster: Welcome back! :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:05:27] <keytoaster>	:)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:05:29] <Philantrop>	Anything else?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:06:29] <Philantrop>	I'll make a summary of our meeting and export a log from Konversation. I'll mail it around to kde@g.o and if it's fine, I'll ask keytoaster to add it to our project page. Ok?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:06:33] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: Maybe just a heads-up about next meeting date?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:06:39] <genstef>	Philantrop: thanks :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:06:41] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: sure
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:07:08] <jmbsvicetto>	If I'm not mistaken, next meeting will take place at 13/11
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:07:28] <Philantrop>	Ok, then. The next meeting will take place on November, 10th, 2007 at 18:00 UTC here in #gentoo-kde. :-) I'll mail reminders again and poke you guys on IRC whereever I find you. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:08:04] <jmbsvicetto>	Sorry, 10/11
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:08:15] <keytoaster>	Philantrop, uhm, could we do that on another date
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:08:25] <Philantrop>	keytoaster: What's wrong with that date? :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:08:43] <keytoaster>	i just found out that my family visits my friend every second saturday of the month as well...
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:09:02] <keytoaster>	so we'll probably be having dinner at this time, just like today
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:09:14] <keytoaster>	so i will most likely never be able to attend the whole meeting
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:09:17] <genstef>	first saturday then? :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:09:22] <keytoaster>	fine for me
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:09:28] <jmbsvicetto>	hehe
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:09:32] <Philantrop>	!herd kde
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:09:35] <jeeves>	Philantrop: (kde) caleb, carlo, centic, cryos, deathwing00, genstef, keytoaster, masterdriverz, mattepiu, philantrop, tgurr, troll, vanquirius
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:09:45] <Philantrop>	Shall we move our meetings to the first Saturday each month?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:09:48] <jmbsvicetto>	first saturday is bug day, but fine with me ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:10:42] <Philantrop>	cryos|laptop, genstef, keytoaster, masterdriverz, tgurr? First Saturday each month from November on?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:10:51] <keytoaster>	yes
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:11:07] <cryos|laptop>	Yes.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:11:17] <tgurr>	fine to me
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:11:44] <jmbsvicetto>	Anyone objects having a note on the project page about the "usual" meeting time?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:12:01] <jmbsvicetto>	In case any interested party wants to follow the meetings
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:12:12] <Philantrop>	If I didn't misread genstef he doesn't object to it either so that would be 5:0 in favour of moving it. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:12:54] <Philantrop>	keytoaster: Could you add a note about the 1st Sat every month as our meeting time?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:13:28] <keytoaster>	yup
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:13:53] <Philantrop>	It's decided then: The next meeting will take place on November, 3rd, 2007 at 18:00 UTC here in #gentoo-kde. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:14:05] <keytoaster>	i'll do it as soon as i'm home
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:14:12] <Philantrop>	keytoaster: Sure, no worries. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:14:30] <Philantrop>	!herd kde
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:14:31] <jeeves>	Philantrop: (kde) caleb, carlo, centic, cryos, deathwing00, genstef, keytoaster, masterdriverz, mattepiu, philantrop, tgurr, troll, vanquirius
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:14:32] <Philantrop>	Anything else for tonight, guys?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:15:16] <jmbsvicetto>	Can't recall anything else
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:15:37] <Philantrop>	Ok, thanks to all of your for attending. It's great this works and I really appreciate your feedback and help!
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:15:46] <Philantrop>	s/your/you :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:15:52] <genstef>	Philantrop: well, I wonder about a kde lead? I think we decided last time about it, but cannot find anything on the project page?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:16:03] <Philantrop>	genstef: We didn't decide about it. :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:16:30] <jmbsvicetto>	genstef: I think we decided to *not* decide ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:16:41] <Philantrop>	We could decide about it, of course.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:16:46] <genstef>	Philantrop: some note like "we do not have a lead: decisions can be made by everyone but it usually it is a good idea to ask philantrop because he is around and knowledgable"
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:17:46] <jmbsvicetto>	I would like to propose we select a lead for kde and I want to suggest Philantrop
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:17:46] <genstef>	anyways, not that important ..
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:18:48] <jmbsvicetto>	Does anyone want to open up the election process?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:18:58] <genstef>	jmbsvicetto: totally against it
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:19:05] <genstef>	we already decided on the matter :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:19:13] <genstef>	it just needs to be reflected on the project page
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:19:14] <jmbsvicetto>	Against the lead or the election? ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:19:19] <jmbsvicetto>	Ah, ok :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:19:38] <genstef>	you said what we decided
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:19:42] <jmbsvicetto>	:)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:19:51] <Philantrop>	genstef: We'll add the note as you suggested to the project page. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:19:56] <jmbsvicetto>	keytoaster: Mind to add a note to the page? ;)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:20:11] <jmbsvicetto>	Philantrop: We should also send a mail to -core or -dev announcing it
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:20:20] <keytoaster>	give me a complete text :)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:20:40] <genstef>	keytoaster: look a few lines a bove the long text.
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:21:00] <Philantrop>	keytoaster: "We do not have a formal lead: Decisions can be made by every herd member but it usually is a good idea to ask philantrop because he is around and knowledgable."
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:21:41] <keytoaster>	ah, k, thanks
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:22:17] <Philantrop>	Ok, final call: Anything else? :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:22:18] <genstef>	possibly close to the members box
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:22:34] <Philantrop>	keytoaster: Directly above the box, I'd say. :-)
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:24:28] <tgurr>	I'm off then, ok?
+[Sa Okt 13 2007] [21:25:00] <Philantrop>	Ok, let's call this meeting closed! Thanks again! :-)
diff --git a/meeting-logs/kde-herd-meeting-summary-20071013.txt b/meeting-logs/kde-herd-meeting-summary-20071013.txt
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..567b83c
--- /dev/null
+++ b/meeting-logs/kde-herd-meeting-summary-20071013.txt
@@ -0,0 +1,72 @@
+Summary of 13 October 2007 KDE herd meeting
+
+Active participants: cryos, genstef, jmbsvicetto*, keytoaster, philantrop, tgurr
+In the channel: masterdriverz
+Missing: caleb, centic, carlo, deathwing00, mattepiu, troll, vanquirius
+* = invited guests
+
+- Project page: The update of the project page was approved by the participants.
+
+- Process improvement: This topic was postponed until the next meeting.
+
+- Misc: 
+
+1. Bump to KDE 3.5.8:
+The bump to KDE 3.5.8 is taking place in a git repository to allow for others
+to take part, too, and avoid critisism like for the last bump.
+This allows interested users to be "trained on the job" including the use of 
+our QA tools in a controlled environment outside the official tree.
+Furthermore, the KDE 3.5.8 is not meant to be public until the release as per
+upstream request.
+Nevertheless, we will put the finished packages into the tree as package.masked
+ASAP to allow arch teams and other devs to test. After that's done, a mail will 
+be sent to kde@g.o and the core mailinglist by Philantrop.
+
+2. KDE 3.5.8 in stable for 2007.1:
+We will *try* to get KDE 3.5.8 into stable in time for 2007.1 but if we don't, 
+the world won't stop spinning. We will *not* inform the release guys about us 
+making it in time to not endanger their time frame needlessly if we don't make it.
+
+3. Changing to split ebuilds by default:
+This suggestion was rejected by the participants for 3.5.x. We will make it the
+default for KDE 4, though.
+
+4. State of KDE4 in the overlay(s):
+KDE4 in the overlay is doing well. People are installing it, using it and are 
+reporting bugs. We currently have both monolithic and split ebuilds.
+The participants decided 3:1 for keeping the monolithic ebuilds for KDE4.
+
+5. Miscellaneous
+- A particpant asked for information on cmake ("crash course"). Any input is
+appreciated.
+
+- cmake-utils.eclass. Several participants asked to get it into the tree. The final
+remaining "showstopper" is the src_test function which is mostly a verbatim copy
+of the one in ebuild.sh. We currently need it to determine if it's an in-source or
+out-of-source build. Any input on this is appreciated. 
+Philantrop is going to re-submit the eclass to the dev mailinglist next week.
+
+-  Arch Testers / Herd Testers. It was suggested to have Herd Testers for the KDE 
+herd as per GLEP 41. The suggestion was accepted by unanimous vote.
+Philantrop will talk to hparker, the AT lead about it.
+genstef and jmbsvicetto will prepare a draft for the project page and mail to 
+kde@g.o.
+
+- A participant suggested to move the scheduled meeting to the first Saturday of
+each month. This was approved by unanimous vote.
+keytoaster will update the project page accordingly.
+
+- Several participants asked about the Herd lead status as this is currently not
+reflected on the project page. The participants asked keytoaster to add the 
+following to the project page directly above the "Members" box:
+"We do not have a formal lead: Decisions can be made by every herd member but it usually is a good idea to ask Philantrop because he is around and knowledgable."
+
+
+Tasks:
+- Put the finished KDE 3.5.8 packages into the tree in p.mask by October, 14th 2007
+and inform kde@g.o and the core mailinglist about it. (Philantrop) 
+- cmake-utils.eclass should be re-submitted to the dev mailinglist by next week. (Philantrop)
+- Contact the AT project on how to implement HTs for the KDE herd. (Philantrop)
+- Prepare a draft for the project page about HTs. (genstef, jmbsvicetto)
+- Update the project page with information about project lead and monthly meetings. (keytoaster)
+