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+19:02 <@Chainsaw> So, we meeting?
+19:02 <@jmbsvicetto> scarabeus: are you chairing the meeting?
+19:04 <@scarabeus> yeah
+19:04 <@scarabeus> sorry i spent last 14 minutes getting to net
+19:04 <@scarabeus> lemme open eveyrthing i need
+19:05 <@scarabeus> i just opened lappy
+19:06 <@scarabeus> ok
+19:06 <@scarabeus> so we can start if nobody complains :)
+19:06 <@scarabeus> but there is one thing only on the topic :)
+19:06 <@scarabeus> so lets start with mandatory thingie
+19:06 <@scarabeus> roll call:
+19:07  * scarabeus obviously here
+19:07 <@Chainsaw> Yes, here.
+19:07 <@Chainsaw> Mr. Vicetto was here earlier.
+19:07 <@Chainsaw> Even the kitten.
+19:07 <@Chainsaw> Oh, and wired.
+19:08 <@scarabeus> so we lack only Betelgeuse and ferringb
+19:08 <@bonsaikitten> is here.
+19:09 <@scarabeus> wired, jmbsvicetto: show up again ;)
+19:09  * wired here
+19:09 <@Chainsaw> Just beetlejuice then.
+19:09 <@wired> lol
+19:09 <@jmbsvicetto> sorry, here
+19:10 <@scarabeus> ok
+19:10 <@scarabeus> 5 is enough for the meeting
+19:10 <@scarabeus> so lets rool i guess
+19:10 <@scarabeus> or does anyone has phone on those two?
+19:11 <@Chainsaw> jmbsvicetto usually calls me. He's very good about that.
+19:11 <@jmbsvicetto> I'll poke Betelgeuse and ferringb 
+19:11 <@scarabeus> Chainsaw: yeah he is great and responsible person
+19:12 <@scarabeus> Chainsaw: i still dont understand how the kde people could trust me to be next in the row for the kde team lead :)
+19:12 <@Betelgeuse> hello
+19:12 <@scarabeus> so thats six :)
+19:12 <@Betelgeuse> I always forget if there's no alarm.
+19:12 <@Betelgeuse> At least jmbsvicetto is a good one :)
+19:13 <@jmbsvicetto> I got voice mail for ferringb 
+19:13 <@scarabeus> ok so lets roll
+19:13 <@scarabeus> this months agenda is just one item
+19:13 <@jmbsvicetto> I'll leave him a message
+19:13 <@scarabeus> http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev-announce/msg_4032405a712196c9f18f29aaf8f54d72.xml
+19:13 <@scarabeus> unless i miss some reply
+19:13 <@scarabeus> (there was one about openrc news item but that is obsolete now)
+19:14 <@scarabeus> so the issue we are speaking about is nice discussion on gentoo-dev
+19:14 <@scarabeus> http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_eaefa325b31360324d0fe53d0b9071e6.xml
+19:15 <@jmbsvicetto> is there anything for us to decide?
+19:15 <@scarabeus> so the issue is that changelog is not used by some developers in certain cases, like package removals
+19:16 -!- NeddySeagoon [~NeddySeag@gentoo/developer/NeddySeagoon] has joined #gentoo-council
+19:16 <@Chainsaw> I strongly believe that a removal is a change, and as such belongs in a changelog.
+19:16 <@Betelgeuse> And they claim that it's not required.
+19:16 <@scarabeus> well technically i would just say that we want devmanual to state that changelogs must be used for all relevant changes expect typo and whitespace changes
+19:16 <@jmbsvicetto> imho, we already have a policy. The "discussion" arises because some developers don't want to follow it
+19:16 <@bonsaikitten> I prefer complete changelogs just so that I can see from the changelog why a removal happened
+19:16 <@scarabeus> so it is explicit
+19:16 <@scarabeus> and even the typo is questional
+19:16 <@scarabeus> i personaly does not changelog only whitespace
+19:16 <@scarabeus> eg trailing spaces removal
+19:17 <@Betelgeuse> In theory you can break the ebuild with every change.
+19:17 <@Chainsaw> Yes, there is a story behind a removal. It should be captured.
+19:17 <@Chainsaw> In fixing a repoman warning, you can break the build.
+19:17 <@Chainsaw> It would be nice to know who changed it and what their motivation was.
+19:18 <@scarabeus> reverse dependencies can get broken with removal
+19:18 <@scarabeus> so removals tracking in changelog is nice
+19:19 <@Betelgeuse> How about voting on the strictest text: "All commits must be accompanied by ChangeLog entries" and if that doesn't pass then think how to relax it?
+19:19 <@scarabeus> good idea
+19:19 -!- kallamej [~kallamej@gentoo/developer/kallamej] has quit [Quit: bl2 here we go]
+19:19 <@wired> i like that
+19:20 <@jmbsvicetto> I'm ok with it
+19:20 <@scarabeus> i agree with that too (in future commits will be changelogs so everything will be shown anyway)
+19:20 <@bonsaikitten> Betelgeuse: "all" is too strict, changelog changes and whitespace fixes might not need changelog entries
+19:21 < Arfrever> Why would commits of changes in never used code (e.g. inside 'if [[ ${PV} == 9999 ]]' block in non-live ebuild) be mentioned in ChangeLog?
+19:21 <@scarabeus> because you alter the ebuild
+19:22 <@Betelgeuse> So let's vote.
+19:22 <@jmbsvicetto> Arfrever: you can always add an entry for the above stating that you're "syncing ebuild with live ebuild version"
+19:23 <@ferringb> Arfrever:  "house keeping" isn't a bad message...
+19:23 <@Betelgeuse> I vote yes for the reason scarabeus stated.
+19:23 <@wired> I vote yes
+19:23 <@scarabeus> i vote yes
+19:23 <@jmbsvicetto> yes
+19:23 <@ferringb> pardon folk, mildly in a sate of "walking dead" today
+19:23 <@ferringb> *state
+19:23 <@scarabeus> ferringb: well you shown up for the only relevant part :) so just use yar powaz
+19:24 < Arfrever> It doesn't make sense to mention changes not affecting any users of given ebuild.
+19:24 <@ferringb> "yes for strictest"
+19:24 <@bonsaikitten> I vote no on Betelgeuse's strict form, but agree with the general idea
+19:24 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: We think otherwise.
+19:24 <@Betelgeuse> You can never be sure any way.
+19:25 <@Betelgeuse> Chainsaw: your vote
+19:29 <@scarabeus> hm
+19:29 -!- alexxy[home] [~alexxy@gentoo/developer/alexxy] has joined #gentoo-council
+19:29 -!- ssuominen [~ssuominen@gentoo/developer/ssuominen] has joined #gentoo-council
+19:30 <@scarabeus> ok we have 6 votes so we can consider it official
+19:30 <@Betelgeuse> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/386527/
+19:30 <@Betelgeuse> Please comment on this and I can push it if ok
+19:31 <@scarabeus> ++
+19:31 < Arfrever> Please vote on excluding changes only in comments.
+19:31 <@ferringb> ';' instead of '-, but sure.
+19:31 <@ferringb> Arfrever: it's a vcs log
+19:31 -!- kallamej [~kallamej@gentoo/developer/kallamej] has joined #gentoo-council
+19:31 <@ferringb> if you seriously think commiting w/ a message '.' in your local vcs when you screw with comments is fine...
+19:31 <@ferringb> well, it's your local vcs
+19:31 <@ferringb> it's not the tree
+19:32 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: semicolon where?
+19:32 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: 3rd line addition
+19:32 <@ferringb> or whatever the appropriate english char may be
+19:32 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: that's the old text
+19:32 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: But I had to rewrap lines
+19:32 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: Only first sentence changed in content
+19:32 <@ferringb> sure doesn't look it
+19:33 -!- bloodnoc [~roy@gentoo/developer/NeddySeagoon] has joined #gentoo-council
+19:33 < Philantrop> Next time you're going to discuss the meaning of "should". :-) I'd make it "must".
+19:34 <@Betelgeuse> Philantrop: hmm true
+19:34 <@Betelgeuse> That was in my text voted also
+19:36 <@Betelgeuse> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/386531/
+19:36 <@Betelgeuse> changed to must
+19:37 <@ferringb> Arfrever: the kicker is, in certain cases, you're partally right.
+19:37 <@ferringb> Arfrever: the reality is, people will just adhere to the letter of the law rather than the intent
+19:37 <@ferringb> we already had that occur with removal
+19:38 -!- darkside_ [~darkside@gentoo/developer/darkside] has joined #gentoo-council
+19:38 <@ferringb> stupid that we have to essentially legislate common sense, but that's what it is right now ;)
+19:39 < NeddySeagoon> ferringb, common sense is much rarer that you might think :)
+19:39 <@ferringb> NeddySeagoon: well aware
+19:39 <@Betelgeuse> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/386532/
+19:41 <@scarabeus> i like the last update
+19:42 <@Betelgeuse> The meeting summary could point to wrapping repoman commit and the ssh tunnels
+19:42 <@Betelgeuse> Those should address the speed concerns raised
+19:42 <@Betelgeuse> at least I have never had issues
+19:43 <@Betelgeuse> I don't do things like KDE bumps though
+19:44 <@scarabeus> Betelgeuse: how?
+19:44 <@scarabeus> i just echangelog everything
+19:44 < Arfrever> `cvs commit` is faster than `repoman commit`. When ChangeLog is not updated during commit of deletions, then no CVS headers are changed and it's possible to commit changes in Manifest in the same commit as deletions of ebuilds.
+19:44 <@scarabeus> and then category-commit it
+19:45 <@jmbsvicetto> Arfrever: that argument isn't imho a valid argument for stop using repoman commit (cvs speed)
+19:45 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: Like I said I don't do those category wide commits :)
+19:46 <@jmbsvicetto> Arfrever: that is a good argument to get people working on replacements for cvs and or improving the QA scripts
+19:46 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: I use http://paste.pocoo.org/show/386533/
+19:46 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse: they can be very "stressing"
+19:46 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: to dig what I just told echangelog
+19:47 < Arfrever> jmbsvicetto: repoman wastes time on scanning other ebuilds not updated during committing.
+19:47 <@ferringb> Arfrever: that's not true.
+19:47 <@jmbsvicetto> last time I tried to do one for KDE I had to give up as my laptop just wasn't able to keep up with it
+19:47 <@ferringb> Arfrever: note the headers in ebuilds.
+19:47 <@ferringb> Arfrever: or headers in any other file frankly, that was modified.
+19:47 < Arfrever> ferringb: I meant commits of only deletions of ebuilds + change in Manifest.
+19:47 <@ferringb> Arfrever: those change, chksum changes, meaning double commit for manifest
+19:47 <+dberkholz> repoman takes like 10 seconds, this isn't a big issue
+19:47 <@ferringb> dberkholz: exactly.
+19:47 <@jmbsvicetto> and that's one reason I'd really would like to have git by now. People have to work on that, though
+19:48 <@ferringb> Arfrever: if you're going to complain about speed, complain about echangelog.
+19:48 <@ferringb> repoman commit's speed really isn't a point you can complain about
+19:48 <@Chainsaw> Sorry for the delay.
+19:48 <@Betelgeuse> Seems there's no objections to my latest devmanual patch so I'll push that in a couple minutes.
+19:48 <@Chainsaw> I am for the strict beetlejuice version. Yes.
+19:49 <@ferringb> beetlejuice beetlejuice beetlejuice!
+19:49  * ferringb wanders off to deal with the sand worms
+19:49 <@Chainsaw> ferringb: Walk without rhythm.
+19:50 <@ferringb> Chainsaw: or walk as if you were a desert mouse
+19:50 <@ferringb> Chainsaw: was referencing the more comical version of sand worms also ;)
+19:50 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: honestly, no idea why I've not made that joke about your nick yet. ;)
+19:51 <@scarabeus> ok so we have conclusion on this issue i suppose guys :)
+19:52 < Arfrever> The patch for devmanual doesn't disallow `ln -fs /bin/true /usr/bin/echangelog` :) .
+19:52 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: Sure but I bet QA/DevRel can come up with something
+19:53 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: That doesn't end up updating ChangeLog
+19:53 <@scarabeus> so next on list is bugs, where there is no change since last month i suppose
+19:54 <@scarabeus> and the last thing on the list is the open floor and other topics brought by other members
+19:54 <@scarabeus> so anyone anything?
+19:54 <@Betelgeuse> jbartosik was supposed to be here for the council web app
+19:54 <@scarabeus> Betelgeuse: btw would you mind open bug with attached changelog? or just commit it directly, if you have no access just tell infra to allow developers group to touch devmanual
+19:54 <@Chainsaw> scarabeus: Nothing further your honour.
+19:55 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: I have push access and it's already in
+19:55 <@Betelgeuse> Any way we set a goal that we have something usable live for the meeting next month
+19:55 <@scarabeus> Chainsaw: does that mean that i have to wear those silly white hair now?
+19:55 < Arfrever> Also echangelog is known to break lines after very short limit. It should be changed to at least 144 :) .
+19:55 <@Chainsaw> scarabeus: Look in a mirror. You already are!
+19:55 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: You can open threads on mailing lists for that
+19:55 <@ferringb> Arfrever: ml.
+19:56 <@ferringb> this isn't going to be dissuaded by arguments about the tools potentially sucking
+19:56 <@ferringb> fix the tools
+19:56 <@Betelgeuse> If anyone wants access the Agilefant instance to track progress please query
+19:56 <@scarabeus> i can wait for public preview :)
+19:56 <@scarabeus> hope it is going well :)
+19:57 <+dberkholz> Arfrever: stop breaking my terminals, they're only 80 wide.
+19:57 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: GSoC hasn't officially started yet :)
+19:58 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: the coding period any way but we started early
+19:58 < Arfrever> dberkholz: You should switch to better terminals.
+19:58  * ferringb should level the +m if arguing over decisions continues
+19:58 <@ferringb> and yes, I'm an ass.
+19:59 <@ferringb> think my point is made however.
+19:59 <@Betelgeuse> Did you notice qiaomuf's blog post about libbash?
+19:59  * bonsaikitten waits for ferringb to get stabby
+20:00 <@ferringb> bonsaikitten: day's starting off that way.  one hopes it becomes more xen like before the folks I have to interview later today ;)
+20:00  * scarabeus throws his knife
+20:00 <@bonsaikitten> zen I hope
+20:00 <@ferringb> zen even.
+20:00 <@scarabeus> here borrow this ;)
+20:00 <@jmbsvicetto> ferringb: hopefully zen ;)
+20:00 <@scarabeus> ok so i guess thats it
+20:00 <@ferringb> xen from the stance of cutting a release in between interviewing. ;)
+20:00 <@jmbsvicetto> scarabeus: ok, quick note
+20:00 <@ferringb> either way
+20:01 <@scarabeus> jmbsvicetto: hm?
+20:01 <@jmbsvicetto> I've finally sent an email about the arch teams to the project ml right before the meeting started
+20:01 <@scarabeus> :)
+20:01 <@scarabeus> i see i see
+20:01 <@jmbsvicetto> and I'm about to send an email about the automatic testing
+20:01 <@scarabeus> so now for the next meeting :) 7.6. 19:00 UTC and who is willing to chair? :)
+20:01 <@jmbsvicetto> so let's see if anything comes out from that
+20:02 <@jmbsvicetto> are we back to Tuesdays or do we want to do it another day of the week?
+20:02 <@Betelgeuse> scarabeus: time works for me
+20:02 < Arfrever> scarabeus: Do you mean 2011-07-06?
+20:02 <@jmbsvicetto> I can do Tuesdays
+20:02 <@ferringb> 19:00 really is sucking ass for me
+20:02 <@Betelgeuse> Arfrever: context tells it's June
+20:02 <@jmbsvicetto> 2001-06-07
+20:02 < Arfrever> jmbsvicetto: It was in the past :) .
+20:02 <@ferringb> admittedly, 20:00 isn't always great either.  22:00 is the sweet spot for me, but I suspect horrible for the rest of y'all
+20:03 <@Chainsaw> I can do Tuesdays, but not the first Tuesday of the month.
+20:03 <@Chainsaw> That's the LUG meeting. Second Tuesday is totally fine though.
+20:03 <@ferringb> can't do mondays, tuesdays is viable, but wednesday is better
+20:03 <@ferringb> then thurs/fri start getting crazy. ;)
+20:03 <@scarabeus> so lets do it on wed
+20:03 <@Chainsaw> And if 22:00 is better for you, I can do that.
+20:03 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: 22UTC starts at 1am
+20:03 <@scarabeus> it is option stuf
+20:03 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: I got up at 5-6am on a saturday for one of these.
+20:03 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: recall, I'm still trying to make y'all get up at a crazy hour in retaliation ;)
+20:04 <@ferringb> wednesday at 19 is fine
+20:04 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: yes but maybe we can find a time that suits everyone :)
+20:04 <@ferringb> it's basically the "ok, fires are out" before the new fires start
+20:05 <@ferringb> Betelgeuse: early morn hours are what I've had for dealing w/ europe, but I've got meetings in the morning.
+20:05 <@ferringb> my schedule sucks, is the short version.
+20:05 <@Betelgeuse> Next meeting is the last one isn't it?
+20:05 <@ferringb> will adapt to y'alls since currently, you outnumber the usians anyways. ;)
+20:05 <@Chainsaw> Betelgeuse: Until the end of the world? That's 2012 isn't it?
+20:06 <@Betelgeuse> ferringb: better luck for the next election round :)
+20:06 <@Betelgeuse> Chainsaw: for our term
+20:06 <@ferringb> heh
+20:06 -!- darkside_ [~darkside@gentoo/developer/darkside] has left #gentoo-council []
+20:06 <@Chainsaw> Betelgeuse: Oh right.
+20:07 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto: Do you remember the election timetable?
+20:07 < NeddySeagoon> the nomination peropd should have started then.  Is that elections slacking again :)
+20:08 <@Chainsaw> Can I buy my TV commercials & news articles yet?
+20:08 <@Betelgeuse> NeddySeagoon: I think the elections take about a month so there's still time before July
+20:09 < NeddySeagoon> Betelgeuse, I thought it was a month each for nomintions and votes ... maybe my memory is fading with age
+20:10 <@ferringb> my memory concurs
+20:10 <@jmbsvicetto> iirc, the election takes place on July and the new council will take office in August
+20:10 <@ferringb> yep
+20:10 <@Betelgeuse> NeddySeagoon: the timeline has probably fluctuated but I'll leave that to the elections team
+20:10 <@Chainsaw> jmbsvicetto: Will we get new chairs?
+20:10 <@jmbsvicetto> NeddySeagoon: no, 15 days each for council (nomination and voting)
+20:10 <@ferringb> huh
+20:10 <@ferringb> either way
+20:10 <@jmbsvicetto> NeddySeagoon: the foundation is the one taking 1 month for each
+20:10 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto: Our first meeting is marked for July 14, 2010 for some reason
+20:11 <@jmbsvicetto> Chainsaw: hehe
+20:11 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse: ok, then my memory is "skewed"
+20:11 <@jmbsvicetto> I'll check the election schedule this week and will report it
+20:12 <@scarabeus> ok guys i have to disappear :)
+20:12 <@scarabeus> find next meeting chair and date, i am fine with everything :)
+20:12 -!- alexxy[home] [~alexxy@gentoo/developer/alexxy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
+20:12 <@Betelgeuse> I propose we start 5mins from now
+20:12 <@scarabeus> and if anyone of you mail me log i will create proper summary and commit during this week
+20:12 <@Chainsaw> Not the first Tuesday of the month.
+20:12 <@scarabeus> Betelgeuse: xD
+20:12 <@Chainsaw> Not a Friday/Saturday/Sunday.
+20:13 <@Chainsaw> Any other day/time, I'll move stuff to make it work.
+20:13 <@Betelgeuse> 2011-06-14 19UTC?
+20:13 <@Betelgeuse> Or 06-15 as it was better to ferringb
+20:13 <@Chainsaw> Either works for me.
+20:13 <@jmbsvicetto> I can be the chair for next meeting
+20:14 <@Chainsaw> That would be most appreciated.
+20:14 <@ferringb> eenie meenie
+20:14 <@ferringb> honestly my schedule just @!#*ing sucks
+20:14 <@ferringb> all days exempting weekend aren't great
+20:14 <@ferringb> wedn. is my preference, but it's not a hard req
+20:15 <@Betelgeuse> wired: time preferences?
+20:15 <@jmbsvicetto> So, 20110604 (Saturday) or 20110614 (Tuesday): what do you pick?
+20:15 <@Betelgeuse> jmbsvicetto: 0615?
+20:15 <@jmbsvicetto> sorry, 20110615 (Wednesday)
+20:15 <@ferringb> err
+20:15 <@wired> i prefer wednesday
+20:15 <@ferringb> crap.  forgot.  10-20 I'm moving.
+20:16 <@wired> any time after 1800 utc
+20:16 <@ferringb> specifically will be driving through redwood forests sometime on the 15th. :)
+20:16 <@ferringb> week prior being my preference
+20:16 <@ferringb> else I'll just have to send a proxy
+20:16 <@jmbsvicetto> next attempt: 20110604 (Saturday) or 20110608 (Wednesday)
+20:16 <@ferringb> 08. :)
+20:16 <@wired> 08 +1
+20:16 <@ferringb> <-- work beckons
+20:17 <@jmbsvicetto> Wednesday - 1900 UTC
+20:17 <@Betelgeuse> 08 ok
+20:17 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse / bonsaikitten / Chainsaw / ferringb / scarabeus / wired: 20110608 1900 UTC, is that ok for you?
+20:17 <@ferringb> yes
+20:18 <@Betelgeuse> yes
+20:18 <@bonsaikitten> yes
+20:18 <@Chainsaw> jmbsvicetto: Yes.
+20:19 <@wired> yes
+20:19 <@Chainsaw> Consensus!
+20:20 <@jmbsvicetto> we're missing scarabeus 
+20:20 <@Betelgeuse> 20:12 <@scarabeus> find next meeting chair and date, i am fine with everything :)
+20:20 <@Chainsaw> Summary: Yes.
+20:20 <@jmbsvicetto> ok, then we're settled :)
+20:20 <@jmbsvicetto> Thanks everyone
+20:21  * Chainsaw bows and leaves the room
+20:21 <@Betelgeuse> is summary done?
+20:21 -!- jmbsvicetto changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: Next meeting: 20110608 1900UTC | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/utctolocal.html?time=1900 | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
+20:21 <@jmbsvicetto> Betelgeuse: scarabeus promised to do it soon
+20:22 -!- Chainsaw [~chainsaw@gentoo/developer/atheme.member.chainsaw] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
+20:22 <@jmbsvicetto> wired: mail about automatic testing finally sent to the mls
+20:22 <@Betelgeuse> 20:12 <@scarabeus> and if anyone of you mail me log i will create proper summary and commit during this week
+20:22 <@jmbsvicetto> oh, ok
+20:22 <@Betelgeuse> Someone needs to commit the log
+20:22 <@jmbsvicetto> I'll take care of the log later today
+20:23 -!- alexxy [~alexxy@gentoo/developer/alexxy] has joined #gentoo-council
+20:23 <@jmbsvicetto> Let's close this meeting then
+20:23 -!- alexxy [~alexxy@gentoo/developer/alexxy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
+20:23 <@Betelgeuse> thanks
+20:23 <@jmbsvicetto> If anyone wishes to call the council attention to any issue, please do so