Add council log & summary from August 17 meeting.

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+13:58 < ssuominen> It's 1800 UTC?
+13:59 <@leio> in 2 minutes, yes
+13:59 <@dertobi123> not yet
+13:59  * ssuominen runs ntpdate
+14:00 <+tanderson> now it is
+14:00 < ahf> hah.
+14:00 <+tanderson> ahf: did I get it at :00 ? :)
+14:00 < ahf> you did.
+14:00 <@leio> Ok. Who's chairing?
+14:01 -!- gwendely [n=Administ@4103ds5-ynoe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #gentoo-council
+14:02 <@leio> lets start with a rollcall then first..
+14:03 <@Calchan> here
+14:03 < ssuominen> here (proxying solar)
+14:03 <@ulm> \o/
+14:03 <@dertobi123> <- here
+14:04 < ssuominen> I never saw an agenda for this meeting. There's none?
+14:04 <@dertobi123> there's none
+14:04 < ssuominen> nod
+14:04 <@dertobi123> besides the request to discuss "10 years gentoo"
+14:05 <@Calchan> isn't anybody shamed?
+14:05 <@leio> lu_zeor/lu_zero, betelgeuse?
+14:05 <@dertobi123> and if zmedico is around - i'd happy to get a status update of eapi-3 implementation in portage :)
+14:05 <@Calchan> because I know I am
+14:05 < ssuominen> well, latest about 10.0 livecd's (from what I know)
+14:05 <@dertobi123> +be
+14:05 < ssuominen> 00:37 <likewhoa> updates now are about 40 new packages and kernel changes for both x86/amd64, plan on adding multiple kernel images to the isos and  hybridiso option for the image next.
+14:05 < ssuominen> likewhoa won't be back until friday from his trip to work on the cd's
+14:06 -!- Poly-C_atwork [n=Poly-C@gentoo/developer/Polynomial-C] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
+14:06 < likewhoa> Calchan: why the shame?
+14:06 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: because we did suck on putting an agenda together
+14:06 <@dertobi123> which we wanted to do a week beforehand
+14:06 < likewhoa> dertobi123: agreed
+14:06 < ssuominen> likewhoa: good, you're around :)
+14:07 <@Calchan> not only that, we did suck at doing anything since last meeting
+14:07 < likewhoa> ssuominen: just got here as leio said 'lets start'
+14:07 <@ulm> Calchan: it's holiday season though
+14:08 < ssuominen> yeah, it's quiet as usual this time of year
+14:08 <@ulm> but that's no real excuse
+14:08  * likewhoa agrees
+14:08 <@dertobi123> we should appoint someone who does make sure we have an agenda for next meeting (one week beforehand)
+14:08 < likewhoa> on at being not an excuse that is
+14:09 <@dertobi123> if noone else wants to - i can do that
+14:09 <@ulm> dertobi123++
+14:09 <@leio> I did some poking around at some projects I deem council related, but nothing noteworthy indeed, work deadlines and high priority other gentoo work in case of me
+14:10 <@leio> I was going to propose making some responsible for the next meeting as well, and always so. I think we briefly discussed that last time too?
+14:10 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: you have the specs in some public repository? any images to test around somewhere?
+14:10 <@dertobi123> we should make sure that cd will be tested as much as possible
+14:11 < likewhoa> dertobi123: I put up some images at http://weboperative.com/gentoo/downloads/livecds
+14:11 < ssuominen> Would something as marking 2008.0 profiles deprecated and instructing users to move into 10.0 ones at the same day when new LiveCD's are out something that needs councils attention?
+14:11 <@dertobi123> whee? installer?
+14:11 < likewhoa> and specs are at svn co svn://anonsvn.gentoo.org/releng/trunk/releases/10.0
+14:11 <@dertobi123> cool :)
+14:12 < likewhoa> dertobi123: well they will be livedvds, but initially was working on the livecd specs
+14:12 <@leio> ssuominen: maybe. I personally wouldn't want casual users moving over earlier than the release though
+14:12 <@leio> likewhoa: feel free to contact me about any GNOME related things, I'd like to see that top notch there
+14:12 < ssuominen> leio: people have already started moving, i don't see anything bad in that
+14:12 < likewhoa> dertobi123: currently new changes have not been committed but I do have a request for some testers.
+14:13 < ssuominen> i guess it's more of covering my own ass by requesting councils support for that move (dropping in the deprecated file to all arch's 2008.0 profiles when the livecds are out)
+14:13 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: i very much dislike marking the 2008.0 as deprecated that soon
+14:13 < likewhoa> leio: well desktop is xfce but I could use some testers for any gnome apps that might be on there. :)
+14:13 < ssuominen> ;)
+14:13 <@leio> ssuominen: I mostly have profile reorganizations in mind, changing some things potentially drastically (e.g my gnome profile mail)
+14:14 <@leio> likewhoa: it should be GNOME, it was made to be xfce for space reasons, which I believe are solved by now, or can be solved on time
+14:14 <@leio> (in 2008.0)
+14:14 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: haven't checked yet, but mailwrapper isn't use.default'ed anymore, right?
+14:14 < ssuominen> remi wanted to unmask new xcb in 10.0 ones (from package.mask) and there's make.defaults change that USE=qt3 and USE=esd isn't default anymore
+14:14 < ssuominen> otherwise they are identical
+14:14  * leio thinks we are a bit uncoordinated here
+14:14 < ssuominen> dertobi123: see above reasoning ^
+14:15 < likewhoa> leio: well solar mentioned he wanted it to be a livedvd since it will be circulated on some IT magazines, hence why I started to add new packages. I guess we need to discuss this with him.
+14:15 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: you want a bug report to remove mailwrapper or can you just commit that "fix"? :)
+14:16 <@dertobi123> leio: we are - basically because we lack an agenda
+14:16 < ssuominen> dertobi123: i'm not familiar with that issue in fact, you dropped that like a bomb ;)
+14:16 < likewhoa> leio: I have no problem using gnome.
+14:16 <@dertobi123> i'd prefer to have both kde and gnome and to make users able to choose what they want to use ;)
+14:16 < ssuominen> targets/server/make.defaults has make.defaults of mailwrapper
+14:17 < ssuominen> *use default
+14:17 <@ulm> maybe it would be a good thing to have a tracker bug for the livecd/dvd package set
+14:17 <@leio> likewhoa: lets discuss that later in my GNOME team capacity, I pretty much hear about you the first time now
+14:17 <@dertobi123> ulm: yep
+14:18 < likewhoa> leio: ok
+14:18 <@leio> yeah, KDE too on LiveDVD case makes perfect sense. We need all of the desktops on there work good though, which is a good motivation to get it into good shape for non-installer regular use as well. Release as a QA motivator
+14:19 <@ulm> and we need Emacs of course ;)
+14:19 <@ulm> which is not on any install media currently
+14:19 <@dertobi123> and we need a bug to track those requests ;)
+14:19 <@ulm> yes ;)
+14:19 <@Calchan> has anybody talked to releng about this new livecd/dvd?
+14:20 <@leio> by my understanding solar has
+14:20 <@leio> ssuominen?
+14:21 < ssuominen> yes, solar has, and agaffney should be informed as well
+14:21 < tove> "request to discuss "10 years gentoo"" -- does it only mean a new release? was it on any mailinglist?
+14:21 < ssuominen> (the profiles was created by my, solar and agaffney's consensus)
+14:21 < ssuominen> for the release
+14:22 < ssuominen> dertobi123: there's dozens of ebuilds using mailwrapper in IUSE, i'd very much like to get more information on that move :)
+14:23 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: plain simple: doesn't work, lots of bugs, deprecated.
+14:23 < likewhoa> I need a way to know which users will be available to test the iso images as they are made. What can be done?
+14:23 < ssuominen> dertobi123: in short: the IUSE should be removed from affected ebuilds and mailwrapper masked for removal?
+14:24 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: that's a partially happening for quite some time, i've been slacking on getting mailwrapper removed for quite some time though ;)
+14:24 < ssuominen> dertobi123: i can pull some treecleaning strings ;P
+14:24 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: what about including smolt-gentoo and collecting hardware-profiles from the test images?
+14:25 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: if you need testers some forums announcement or just a thread in the forums is a good start to get "a few" testers :)
+14:25 < ssuominen> sticky forums thread
+14:26 < likewhoa> I also like to make a request on #gentoo's topic mentioning the upcoming "screenshot contest" we could use more exposure on that.
+14:27 <@dertobi123>  #gentoo's topic isn't something the council needs to discuss
+14:27 < bonsaikitten> likewhoa: mention it in #-ops, we should find some space in /topic
+14:28 < likewhoa> dertobi123: I might need to talk to you about your last request as I am not that familiar with smolt usage, but I'll look into it myself before hand.
+14:29 <@dertobi123> seeing that we have only about 6 or 7 weeks left until our 10th birthday, what about weekly status updates on the -dev lists?
+14:29 <@dertobi123> likewhoa: sebastian pipping is working on that (summer of code project), see the -dev list or just mail him :)
+14:29 < likewhoa> i will
+14:30 < likewhoa> I won't be active until this coming friday, but I have lots of updates for the spec file and new images.
+14:31 <@leio> any other things the council should see happen for the 10th birthday, release related and any other plans or activities?
+14:33 <@dertobi123> birthday parties around the world would be cool - but not really having pr@g.o that's not realistic
+14:33 < likewhoa> I am not sure if catalyst will support multiple desktop environments and I am sure it won't support multiple kernels specially 32/64bit kernels and hybridiso to name a few. I will need to customize the image for those options and more.
+14:34 <@dertobi123> or talk to agaffney to get as much feature as possible into catalyst :)
+14:35 < likewhoa> I will :)
+14:35 < ssuominen> dertobi123: opened a bug for mailwrapper and punted it from make.defaults
+14:35 <@dertobi123> ssuominen: :]
+14:36 <@ulm> ssuominen: there's already bug 158003
+14:36 < Willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/158003 "Remove mailwrapper"; Gentoo Linux, Applications; NEW; wschlich@g.o:wschlich@g.o
+14:36 < ssuominen> utter fail
+14:36 <@dertobi123> args
+14:36  * ssuominen swears he did search
+14:37 <@dertobi123> heh
+14:37 <@dertobi123> my fault
+14:37  * dertobi123 hides
+14:37 <@leio> I'm sure council doesn't need to worry about these small things
+14:37 <@leio> regarding birthday parties, we should see what PR and dabbott think of it
+14:38 <@leio> (under small things, I mean specific bugs to get fixed by the release finalizing)
+14:39 <@leio> I plan to arrange something simple birthday-wise locally at least in my case
+14:39 < ssuominen> leio: true
+14:39 <@dertobi123> dito
+14:40 < likewhoa> Well I was planning on making a bunch of gentoo related screenshots, maybe something PR can work with me on.
+14:40 < likewhoa> s/screenshots/wallpapers/
+14:41 < likewhoa> maybe a 10 year roadmap 2010 calendar perhaps
+14:42 < ssuominen> We used to have the gentoo artwork project too, but nothing came out of it..
+14:42 < ssuominen> cla started it
+14:42 -!- impulze [n=impulze@eta-ori.net] has joined #gentoo-council
+14:42 < ssuominen> but might ask him still?
+14:43 < likewhoa> I'll ping him then
+14:45 <@leio> lets get this discussion going on mailing list too
+14:45 <@leio> I trust ssuominen and likewhoa will start appropriate threads as appropriate for points of discussion, right? :)
+14:46 < likewhoa> I'll let ssuominen start the initial thread.
+14:46 <@leio> and tracker bug
+14:47 < ssuominen> likewhoa: let's discuss shortly on query of the context of the thread (summarize above)
+14:47 < likewhoa> that too, just pm the bug # and i'll cc myself.
+14:47 < likewhoa> ok ssuominen
+14:47 <@leio> ok, what else birthday related?
+14:48 < likewhoa> leio: Whatever became of the new gentoo.org layout project? After 10 year we still have the same website.
+14:49 < likewhoa> sorry if this is not a related discussion.
+14:49 < ssuominen> the appropiate bugs to change gentoo docs are already open for 10.0 profile change, eselect profile usage, etc.
+14:49 < ssuominen> will link them to the tracker
+14:50 <@leio> I think there can be thread to ask what achievable could be done, and we should oversee things happening
+14:50 <@leio> Should we move on to any other topics? (open floor, etc)
+14:50 < ssuominen> yes
+14:51 <@leio> dertobi123: so you take responsibility for the next meetings agenda? (and then next meeting someone else can take it for the next one after that)
+14:51 <@dertobi123> leio: yep
+14:52 <@leio> Next question would be - When is the next meeting
+14:52 <@dertobi123> september 14th?
+14:53 <@leio> I had some vague thoughts of earlier meeting due to missing agenda, but there was an automated (but Thursday mention) e-mail with no replies, so September 14th sounds good for me too. Others?
+14:54 <@ulm> fine with me too
+14:54 <@Calchan> godd for me too
+14:54 <@Calchan> s/good/godd/
+14:54 -!- dertobi123 changed the topic of #gentoo-council to: Next meeting Monday September 14th 1800UTC.
+14:54 <@Calchan> or vice versa
+14:54 <@dertobi123> heh
+14:54 <@dertobi123> anything left for today?
+14:55 <@dertobi123> who can write a short summary?
+14:55 <@leio> do we have tanderson doing that?
+14:55 <+tanderson> leio: yes
+14:55 <@dertobi123> ok, cool
+14:55 <+tanderson> leio: I didn't see anything much to summarize though
+14:56 < Arfrever> Re implementation of EAPI="3" in Portage: There was almost no progress in the last month :) .
+14:56 <@leio> any idea when you can work on it? Now that we have meetings on Monday, weekend isn't that ideal
+14:56 <@dertobi123> Arfrever: arg :(
+14:56 < Arfrever> dertobi123: zmedico is busy with implementation of support for Python 3.*.
+14:56 < Philantrop> tanderson: "The council discussed anything coming to their mind vaguely related to the 10th anniversary." <-- here you are! ;-)
+14:57 < tove> "The decision was made to wait for lu_zero's vote by email.
+14:57 < tove> " -- did he?
+14:57 <+tanderson> Philantrop: not helpful
+14:57 < tove> wrt public or alias drafts
+14:58 <@dertobi123> tove: iirc no
+15:00 <@ulm> in spite of EAPI 3 being delayed, we should start working on the EAPI 4 feature list at some time
+15:01  * bonsaikitten stabs ulm a bit
+15:01 < bonsaikitten> we should work on deprecating obsolete EAPIs then too
+15:01 < Arfrever> I would like to request inclusion of support for multiple ABIs in EAPI="4".
+15:02 <@ulm> Arfrever: we shouldn't have the council discuss all the details, imho
+15:02 <@leio> at some time sounds good. Do we have a working group to "bless" to work on it at the beginning? :)
+15:03 <@ulm> leio: that's exactly what we need
+15:03 <+tanderson> leio: Calchan had some ideas about that iirc
+15:04 <@Calchan> read my manifesto
+15:05 <+tanderson> leio: did you mean "any idea when you can work on it" to me?
+15:06 <@leio> tanderson: yes
+15:06 <+tanderson> oh
+15:06 <+tanderson> I'll work on it over the week
+15:06 <+tanderson> I just used the weekend because it was simpler and it was only a 48 hour delay
+15:08 -!- bearsh [n=quassel@adsl-245-48-fixip.tiscali.ch] has quit ["No Ping reply in 90 seconds."]
+15:09 -!- bearsh [n=quassel@adsl-245-48-fixip.tiscali.ch] has joined #gentoo-council
+15:09 <@dertobi123> so, we're done?
+15:09 <@leio> regarding EAPI, I think if someone wants to kickstart the next one already without EAPI=3 being implemented in portage, I see the best course of action being to form a working group that the council can trust this work with and propose it on the mailing list or for the next meeting to discuss (mailing list should be quicker..). Any objections?
+15:10  * Calchan wonders where leio got that idea from
+15:10 <@leio> I don't know, disregard that
+15:12 <+tanderson> I'll volunteer,
+15:14 <@leio> it was my view of the most productive course of action, which was to propose something concrete to the council on mailing list to discuss or for the meeting, which to my knowledge is the normal course of action anyway, so that's where I got the idea from..
+15:15 <@leio> us being proactive is another choice, but ulm is a council member... or we can choose to block any EAPI-4 work until 3 is done..
+15:16 <@ulm> leio: of course eapi-3 should have priority, but we can't postpone work on 4 indefinitely
+15:18 <@leio> being proactive would also be assigning someone (perhaps a council member) with the task of EAPI-4 and go from there
+15:19 <+tanderson> why don't we have a general committee for these types of things(EAPI issues mainly)? (not my idea, but it's a good one)
+15:20 <@leio> We are well over an hour, should we close the open floor and meeting and continue post-meeting and mailing list?
+15:20 <@Calchan> I was under the impression we were done for a long time
+15:22 <@leio> fine, we are or were done...
+15:23 <@dertobi123> ok